Nadeem Chaudhry - CTO of Jobot, AI Powered Job Search #54

Welcome to another episode of Develomentor. Today's guest is Nadeem Chaudhry. 

Nadeem Chaudhry is the proverbial college dropout who left school early to get started on his software career. After leaving college before his junior year, he worked his way up from software engineering and architecture into engineering management and leadership. These days, he’s the Chief Technical Officer (CTO) of Jobot, a startup focused on using artificial intelligence to transform the career recruiting space. 

Nadeem has worked in a variety of industries including ecommerce, recruiting, and customer relationship management. All along the way, he has always been building products. 

Episode Summary

"When I was in college, I really got my hands dirty and started building very early on. So by my second year, I had already completed an entire platform for students to buy and sell books, goods, other things with each other on campus"

"You want the people that you're mentoring to continuously grow, and that may mean that they outgrow what you can offer."

—Nadeem Chaudhry

Key Milestones

1. Why didn't college work out for Nadeem?
2. Nadeem's first title out of college was “Lead Software Developer”.  How does one land a lead role straight out of dropping out of college?
3. Many engineers struggle with deciding whether to code or go into management. What was Nadeem's thought process in making those choices?
4. Who were Nadeem's mentors throughout his career?
5. Key traits Nadeem looks for when hiring and how does he think about team building?
6. What are some tips for a developer getting better at the business side?
7. What are a few quick tips you can enact to make you stand out to recruiters (and the bots who are filtering resumes and profiles)?

Additional Resources

Start with Why - by Simon Sinek

Measure What Matters: How Google, Bono, and the Gates Foundation Rock the World with OKRs - by John Doerr

Develomentor Ep. 5 Design Thinking and Your Career, with Drew Farris

Ep. 12 How to Shift Your Career from Engineering to Product, with Nick Caldwell

Ep. 10 From a Bachelor’s in Psychology to CTO, with Stephen Carvelli

The Hacker News - find out what's trending in technology


Learn more about Jobot - https://jobot.com/

Follow Jobot on twitter - @JobotJobs

You can find more resources in the show notes
To learn more about our podcast go to https://develomentor.com/
To listen to previous episodes go to https://develomentor.com/blog/

Follow Nadeem Chaudhry
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/nadeem-chaudhry/

Follow Develomentor:
Twitter: @develomentor

Follow Grant Ingersoll
Twitter: @gsingers
LinkedIn:

Transcript

spk_1:   0:18
hello and welcome everyone to the development or podcast your source for interviews and content on careers in technology. I'm your host granting her soul For those new to the show, we have three goals. We want to showcase interesting people in tech, working across a variety of roles. We want to highlight the different paths people take in their careers. And most importantly, we want to help you find your path. If you want to learn more, please visit our website at development or dot com or follow us on Twitter at Develop Mentor. Today's guest is the proverbial college dropout who left school early to get started on his software career. After leaving college before his junior year, our guest has worked his way up from software engineering and architecture into engineering manager, management and leadership. He's worked in a variety of industries, including e commerce, recruiting and customer relationship management building products all along the way. These days, he's the chief technical officer of Jabba, a startup focused on using artificial intelligence to transform the career recruiting space. Please welcome to the show. Nadine Chowdhry Nadim Great to have you here.

spk_0:   1:29
Hi, everybody. Thank you for having me grand founder.

spk_1:   1:31
There's so many good questions in there that I want to get into. But I think you know, you're our first guest who actually came in through emailing us. I just want to pause and give a shout up for anybody out there listening. You want your story to be told, Please do drop us an email with that Out of the way. You know one of the things in your email. I was really struck by this story of leaving college early and then rising into the C Street. So let's start things off by having you share that story with our listeners. Walk us through the career highlights, if you

spk_0:   1:58
will. So when I was in college, I really got my hands dirty and started building very early on. So by the time I was in my second year, I had already completed an entire platform for students to buy and sell look goods, other things with each other on campus. So I continued to develop things, and I had the opportunity to come out to California during one of the summer breaks right before my junior year. Growing up my whole life in Connecticut coming to California was quite the I open it and I just fell in love with California. I knew I would eventually want to move away from Connecticut because I love technology so much. Even when I was enrolling in college, I chose an entirely software development path for my computer science degree, and I was told that I shouldn't do that like I should have software and hardware. But I knew myself. I knew what I wanted to do and what I love. So, given the chance to spend some time in California, I decided to apply around. I got very fortunate and got some interviews with four wheel parts in the Southern California area, and they were interested in rebuilding their e commerce pipe because I showed them my students e commerce, platform and enthusiasm. I had around your passion for it. They decided to let me leave the development on. There he comes, Must rebuild. Will we do some amazing things during that time with the revenue which was close to a $1,000,000 for months, and by the time we were done, they was around 2 to 2.5 1,000,000 per month, so we more than doubled monthly revenue. Anyone was using a mix of technology of very large emphasis on usability, and those two things would shape the rest of my career trajectory.

spk_1:   3:46
So you land this lead software development career and then tell us a little bit more about that trajectory because I saw some really interesting things on the profile. Like, for instance, you gonna win into management and then went back into engineering and then all way up into the C suite. So I love to hear a little bit more about the path. After that first job,

spk_0:   4:06
I wanted to continue to make a larger and larger impact, and I saw the amount of impact. My first Boston mentor of Gloria partial having by being able to roll on the department and the business side of things resonated pretty strongly with me. In addition to the technology side of think. So 11 put me in a unique position where I could both enjoy building products and solutions, but also Taylor, then towards the things that we're going to drive the biggest revenue gains or have the best usability features and actually care about what we're building First is building something for the sake of building it. So I wanted the leverage. My ideas has the strength that I was bringing to the table and using that to leverage entire departments, our entire team's to build the products. I was still in every scenario, the lead architect, because it's very easy for me to come up with the product, come up with what we're building and then also at the same time, already taken the consideration for what is our to texture look like? That's gonna power that idea,

spk_1:   5:13
I imagine then that makes a business. I mean, this is one of the things that was really eye opening for me and moving into the C suite of, like having to crash and have no foot in both sides. If you will imagine that really has set you up well for your career, right?

spk_0:   5:28
It has. I've been lucky. I have been given the opportunity for responsibilities, and I've asked for them as well to continue to push, to continue to grow, wanted to take on more and more and at the same time being introspective about, you know, as a developer, what do I like? And don't like both about what I'm doing, what I'm working on and also how teams are being managed. So then, as I transition more and more to the management's eyes, I could implement those lessons and take the best out of, like, one on one meeting. Pick the best out of project management software and techniques. Try to do things in a way that when I was a developer, eliminating the frustrations I had at that time now that I'm a man, been trying to make sure that the developers that I managed don't experience similar frustrations and can continuously grow and push themselves.

spk_1:   6:20
Yeah, so important. I want to touch on that a little bit later. Here, I want to go back a little bit. Just, you know, this moment of leaving college. You know, I'm sure at the time I mean, it's a huge life decision, right? I mean, you spent a lot of money, you're in this program. And sure, you kind of accelerated through in many ways by building your own APS. But I'm curious is to really drilling in on that decision making process and also like a little bit of reflection on how people reacted to that decision and how you dealt with it, because that can be a pretty big moment.

spk_0:   6:52
The decision was relatively easy for me because of the offer that I got. I was fortunate that I wouldn't like leaving college to say I'm gonna find a way. It was I'm super passionate about development. I'm already building things. There's a lot about college that didn't work for me because I was already self learning to such a great degree. And that approach served me really well with how fast technology has moved since college. Because if you're not constantly learning in this business, you'regonna get left behind..

spk_0:   7:26
College, for me is important for people who want to figure out how to get structure, how to get the tools to learn. But because I had those inherently based on the Mount, a passion I had for software development and I could self learn itself teach when I got the offer from foreign parts is 50% more than I would have made out of college. And so I'm like, I'm going into my junior. You're offering me something that's 50% more than what my guidance counselors were telling me. I should make with CF degree, so why wouldn't I take that?

spk_1:   7:59
You know, it's pretty interesting here. You know, that first role, as you mentioned, was lead software developer. If it's a two person company, lead is is what it is. But you know, that sounds like it's a pretty decent revenue size site. I mean, what was that experience like as coming in as this frankly college dropout or junior in college, and all of a sudden you're a team lead.

spk_0:   8:20
Obviously, my age did play somewhat of a factor there. I had to prove myself to more senior people on the team. But I think what being you stand out was how much I cared about the usability and business side of things. And that allowed me dio to really resonate with leadership and to resonate with the people I work with, cause I was not only advocating for what's gonna make an impact than I was on the ground with them building out that solution, so it did take some time to win everyone over. But at the end of it, I got along fantastically with 19 and have ever since. Like I, I love the medicine or you know, having a coach that is also willing to run alongside you versus just tell you what to do. I think it speaks volumes when you believe that the people who are giving you direction know what they're asking of you person just giving you impossible. Goal post.

spk_1:   9:12
I see that as well. It's that's so important. I think it's such a different style of management these days than it used to be. I want to actually pick up on that theme of usability a little bit and take a little side detour to talk about that. You've mentioned it a couple of times, so it's clearly a super important part of how you think about being a software developer. So I would love Teoh for you to spend a few minutes just talking about your views around usability and how that shows up in your work.

spk_0:   9:38
The best way I can put usability was the way that it was put to me many times. Do you want to make things easier on yourself, or do you want to make things easier for you? There's so often time was much easier to build a solution of the dropper that taters towards the speed at which you can really something as much easier to build a drop down with seven values versus trying to make something that auto complete or can have values that are created by end users. It's much easier to build things with your viewpoint. Going into a problem reverses trying to talk to users and understanding what their pain points are, and then actually making sure that you're using your own tool at job. We don't live in house tools, and it's really important for us to understand. How are the users for those tools going to do there? Job. What were they looking for from these tools? How is it going to make them more efficient? Could we use these tools? I'm a big believer in that. If you build something and you plan to have other people use it, then you should be using it to You shouldn't be trying to sell an idea of something that you don't personally believe in using something else by putting the focus on who is then user, putting the focus on actually talking to those people in making sure that you are one of the your own and users. I think that allows you the

spk_1:   11:03
bills, the

spk_0:   11:04
best kind of experiences because it really helps you understand problems that you're trying to take on.

spk_1:   11:10
And, of course, the beauty of your tools that you're building is you literally use your own product to hire the people onto your team. Right? Exactly 91 of things I noticed as well on your profile is you've kind of gone back and forth. You were engineer, you went up, the director engineering and then CTO. And I think one of the things I hear from a lot of engineers about is the struggle of deciding who win it, how to take that leap into management, you know? And do you want to be a people manager? Would you rather stay technical? You know, in Episode five, Drew Ferris talked a lot about you know, this just strong desire to always be technical and then ah, like Nicole dwelling up. So 12 talks about, you know, I wanted to be that management leader and run teams tell us about your thought process and making those choices and how they've played out for you.

spk_0:   12:02
It's a constant balancing act because I do love being an architect and being an individual contributor, and I could see myself being very happy just doing that. The thing that push me away from being an individual contributor. Though waas you could only have so much of an impact at the end of the day, you've only leverage your time in your efforts for the one thing that you're able to contribute to give. You are really passionate about the business side of

spk_1:   12:31
things if

spk_0:   12:32
you have an idea machine and you want to find ways to make your business better. But eventually, as Chorley make the world better, then you have to find a way to shift in the manager. You have to find a way of how do you get other people to believe in the same ideas? How do you get other people to execute on your ideas? Because if you're the only one that can execute on them, then that's the same as if you have only one who believes in them that goal of trying to have bigger and bigger impacts and bigger and bigger solutions. They have to go outside of an individual contributor, and that excites me. While day today I can't help but let go of being an individual contributor because I love it that much. I know long term, it's going to be demands one of teams and management of ideas that is gonna have the greatest impact. And so that's in the future where you continuously Bush my career choice.

spk_1:   13:27
I love that phrase, the management of ideas. I like how that turns in the mine because, I mean, it really brings to the front this notion of, you know, this is a path you're on as well, in terms of what you can do and win. And much of that impact you're talking about is trying to figure out how to prioritize those things, shifting gears a little bit, you mentioned you've had some mentors throughout the years. You know, the name of the show is development or really love for you to reflect on what mentorship has met for you and perhaps some of the people that have mentored you and how they've helped you.

spk_0:   14:00
I think the biggest thing a mentor couldn't do for someone is to let them fail to give them challenges that are just beyond their capabilities and then allow them to learn to figure out and problems all to accomplish them because they are beyond their capabilities. It won't always be a perfect solution, but that I think of how you can really get people. We grow very rapidly. I also think finding cultural fit of What is your team believe in? What is the why behind what you're trying to accomplish At Job, for example, are engineering teams. Why is to unlock human potential that trickles down into the solutions we built fresh recruiters? It impacts. How do we want to recruiters to interact with clients intended it? It all comes around to We feel our technology should help everyone be more of themselves having the people on our team understand our why and then that be part of the solutions that become the how you can start getting people to believe in in your ideas and then challenging them individually on the technology that they're using. One of the things I do during interviews is asked, What are you looking for out of your Korea? Are you trying to be really focused on back end or friends for Dev ops or whatever airy you're most interested in or Do you want to be involved in the full stack as they were? What areas of our department and our team are you most interested in? And then that shapes the past I'm gonna give you and how I'm gonna help you grow. I think it's a lot easier to mentor people in directions. They're inherently motivated and interested.

spk_1:   15:42
Yeah, so much truth there. And then, of course, my mind is spinning as you're a. I figured out how to test candidates for these traits. That would be fantastic. That did

spk_0:   15:52
it company. We think that's gonna be growing over time. I don't think you can really replace the human aspect of technology. Are Well, I doesn't actually even mention isn't about the products. We build this about the humans that we empower while we're using machine learning, using a I to make better solutions. A plan? It's the humans using it and making sure that we're maximizing their action. Can we predict what they look for? It's really fun Problems, assault in terms of mentoring. I think the last thing I want to mention there is one of the things as you saw on my profile the mentors I've had also allowed

spk_1:   16:31
me to

spk_0:   16:31
leave at the right times. I do think that it's important for someone who is a leader to understand when and how someone might actually outgrow your teeth. And as a leader, that should be something you actually work toward. You want the people that you're mentoring to continuously grow, and that may mean that they outgrow what you can offer. That's something that I think is really important not to shy away from them. And that's how you can get real rock stars. 19. Ideally, you want the company to grow with you, and that's where it's really nice that as a startup job bodies able to to constantly grow the business as well. It's an environment that compounds the growth of individuals and business in my past work experience. I do think that there comes a time where, especially in older companies, there comes a time where the technologies can't keep pace. If that means you have to let someone grow beyond your department, that that should be okay. So as an example today, we use a I machine learning a job. Bob. Previously, that's on my older cos I work that they did it and so having such a strong passion for building intelligence solutions, I don't think I could still work there, which is why I'm not still working there. So I think that it's important to mentor people to dare maximum, not your local maximum. Sometimes I need you have to, but them outgrow you.

spk_1:   17:56
And I think that's so true. And it's something I think we all struggle with. Teoh know Stephen Carvell and one of our earlier episodes talked a lot about, you know, there was these points of his career. Where is he rose up to be like CEO of those Home Improvement? And that is like, You know, there was a couple of points where I just stayed too long, and that is a weird feeling right of being in that kind of position. What's been the most surprising thing about your career today? You know, What would ah, 18 year old Nadeem be most surprised about? You know, you took this big leap. It's clearly worked out that you know what's been surprising.

spk_0:   18:32
Having the boat surprising thing for me is just how much technology have taken off the growth in how much technology and backs everyone's day to day lives and the variety of roles that are now available in the field. The fact that you have Silicon Valley, Silicon Beach, all of these major cities, you have remote work taking off. You have a new paradigm with how people are able to contribute and make an impact, a seemingly endless amount of roles. And the future looks even more interesting with where technology's going specifically with AI or virtual reality prey are there's so much excitement and growth potential. And I think saying technology impact people's lives. Even Mawr is exciting to be something to be a part of.

spk_1:   19:24
Yeah, for sure. You know, I love that you had on remote and this opportunity to uplift across a lot of places for people to participate from all around the world like you don't have to go to Silicon Valley anymore, right? I mean, I think that's such a cool thing these days with Attack. And I love also that you hit on that. There's just so many different ways you can participate. I mean, that's in many ways the ethos of this shows. You could be a coder. You could be a product manager. You could be in sales. You could be in engineering like you could be technical and so many different ways these days. Let you mentioned earlier, you know, like this learning the business side. And this is something I see. Actually, a lot of developers kind of struggle with, right? I'm wondering if you could give some tips on how you engaged in, learned about the business. It starts with a passion for it, but then would have perhaps some things that really helped you understand the different impacts in the different ways of thinking about business versus the ways of thinking about building a product. Perhaps

spk_0:   20:28
I think the easiest way day today is to ask a lot of questions. Ideally, the leaders who are coming to you and telling you what to build should know why they're asking for those features. They haven't underlying metric. They're trying to move, or they have a certain user base to try and do to reach out to. They have certain business goals, that their accomplishment and the more you can understand what those goals are, the more you can be in tune with the direction your local businesses moving part. Beyond that keeping your eye on the different analytics and tracking as many different metrics as you can, especially one that impact the number of users you have for the amount of revenue you have. That makes building things and also understand the business a lot easier because it's very exciting to see those numbers move. If you can understand where your revenues coming from or where your users  are coming from, usually you can understand what the business goals are as well, beyond understanding the business of where you work. There's a lot of wonderful books and just that's how I have inaudible subscription during commutes. Aiken here, a wide variety of business topics from okay, ours and coming up with techniques to better manage what our team objectives. Where key results. How should we be looking at past two? I'm a Cenex with the start with Why conversation? There's a lot of information out there and finding podcasts like this one. Or find the audio books reading online. There's wasted Tune in to the information. As long as you're interested in it. I don't think you should force yourself to be interested in things you aren't. Does that exposure resonate with you. Does it fire you up to understand some of the metrics that matter to your company and that you enjoy wanted to make those move? Or do you care just about features on what you're building and you want to let someone else figure out the metric impact? Both are OK. The quicker you can identify what you resonate with and push more in that direction, the happier I think you'll be in. But in the bigger impact could be able to make

spk_1:   22:42
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think for listeners, you know, one of the ways I I kind of think about this is like if you care about growing your career along, like the monetary lines in and the impact lines you know, having an understanding or the revenue comes from allows you to align your own career goals with the parts of the business that are growing as well. And so then you can be front and center on the things that are having the biggest impact. If you want your career to b'more in line with Hey, I want to work on things that are interesting to me and and Maura OK, I want to see features delivered or areas of interest. And, you know, you might not be as motivated by the analytics side of a business. So yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up. We'll also be sure to link up those books that you mentioned in the show notes. Because those air great books. Nadeem, I'm curious. You know, you've been in the CTO role now for a little while, you know? How do you think about CTO as it functions in the business? Like, what do you think are some of the key skills that you really need toe have to be a good CTO?

spk_0:   23:45
I think a passion for business and technology is really important. You need to understand and be able to communicate with your entire team from support to engineering to you explain and research. You need to organize all of these disparate parts into one clear vision and idea and move the business forage. That takes a real amount of passion and caring about what you're building, especially as your teams then get larger having those metrics and mechanisms for here's our underlying why. Here's the principle by which we build things. Here's our different objectives and key results. Well, then, allow you do align larger and larger teams to that clear vision beyond the interested. You got to care about what you're building and you care about the people on your team. So they also care about what they're built.

spk_1:   24:37
Yeah, for sure. And I think that ties back to that life long learner that you are and and wanting to have that impact And in many ways, like what you're describing is an architect view of building a business right is like, What are all the moving parts? How do they work together? So you really appreciate that? Most curious. Just for some quick tips here, you're in the recruiting space. Our listeners are often looking for a job when they're listening to us. Since you're one of the people on the other end building the bots, what helps people stand out in what you've seen so far in building bots around analysing resumes and those things?

spk_0:   25:11
Yeah, So you want to make sure your resume is properly formatted, whether it's a PD upper word, doctor, that your are saving it with text and not as images in the media, so that it can be parsed by whatever says some that President goes through. But that's basic in terms of semantics. What you should care about in your career and how you approach it is if you are on the engineering side, then what of the technology? Is your passion about what are the technologies you would like to wear and then spend some time on Lincoln or on Jabba dot com, throwing a plug in there some time? Seeing what our job descriptions and job postings asking for, Where's the industry going? And if you can identify that if you can stay on top of tech trends and then identify the ones that stand out to you will make it that much easier for you to get a job

spk_1:   26:02
coming into the final few questions here. Ah, medium one of the things that love for our listeners to hear from, especially people in a executive roles. But really, everybody is quick couple of sentences. What's the best thing about the role and what's the most challenging thing about the role?

spk_0:   26:20
The best thing about the role is being able to make ideas come alive is really the epitome of what I've set out my career to accomplish,

spk_1:   26:28
of being

spk_0:   26:29
able to have an idea that I believe will matter should the business talk with different executive leaders about that and I have a team understand it implemented and champion. That's the fun side. And that's what I love about what I get every day on the negative side than the things that keep you up tonight is, you know, ensuring those ideas are the right ones, ensuring you're making informed decisions on that. There's entire department and lively hoods are depending on you. We have over 100 recruiters, the job we just sell very one year. So we're growing and incredibly rapidly, and we take a lot of responsibility and making sure the solutions that we're building are gonna directly impact. Everyone. Blame Village in a positive way. So there's a lot of responsibility there so that we don't use easy answers. We used the right answers and make sure we can back up the decisions we're making.

spk_1:   27:25
I'm curious that, you know, is a quick follow up on that is like, How do you think about working through those types of questions? And you know, I know this is something I struggle with as well right is like at the end of the day, you could move all the boxes you want around on a power point you can draw on the white board. There are people on the other end of it. How do you work through that responsibility?

spk_0:   27:49
Unfortunate that our other executive team, especially our CEO, Heidi Colleges, so such a strong leader. So I have someone I could turn to with a lot of the question, but also like trusting in my instincts, trusting in my experience on the technology side of Here's the direction we should go in with our platforms. Who's the direction we should go in with these different solutions. Here's the key features and then running goes by people who are actually gonna be using this, understanding what their pain points are. What are their thoughts on different types of solutions we have in mind? So I think, trying to get an idea as much as possible, relying on what's worked for others what's worked for yourself, your experience, all of those combined give you a good shot and making the great decisions. And ideally, if you could move fast then that also helps cushion some of your risk if you get it wrong and you can integrate on it than the better off you be. If you get it right, the faster you booth and the longer the impact from that idea, moving quickly is huge. Trusting in your experience is huge on having over buffed set of colleagues that you can talk to and that your ideas against his huge

spk_1:   29:02
Yeah, for sure. I'm just letting that sink in, because I mean, as so many true sitting there in terms of what I've seen in my own career as well. So thank you for sharing that 19. This show is called development, or so I want to ask you to put on your mentoring hat for a moment. What's your best career advice again? Maybe it's the 18 year old and you or maybe it's that person just getting started in their software career. Who wants to be CTO someday? How do you sum it all up?

spk_0:   29:26
Is the same advice I got when I was in high school from teachers and pick a career that you enjoy. I didn't really give it a lot of weight back then, but I think it's incredibly important, especially if you pick a technology career because there's a lot of self learning that has to happen As over time, technology is constantly changing, so make sure you have resource is available for How are you going to continue to learn and push yourself? Do you have someone in your company brings in new technologies or new ideas? If not, is that a role that you can take on? Are you involved in forms like Hacker News, where you can see what's trending and technology? Do you see the same concepts getting posted over and over? Try to keep on top of

spk_1:   30:13
a

spk_0:   30:13
boy or a tech trends going. And even if you don't use everything right away, at least understand its use case. There's too much technology out there to really be familiar with all of it. But if you can understand when and why to use it, then you have a big advantage because when you've been faced that problem, you know where to turn your passion about those things, and keeping it today with all the trends becomes easier because you actually enjoy what you're reading and enjoy keeping Date of the F B a lifelong wear because it's a fast changing industry.

spk_1:   30:44
I love in one that's that. Move fast and be open to new ideas. I love that so much. Nine teams so great to have you on the show. Final question working. Our listeners best learn more from you. Perhaps value on social media linked an R job bought. How did they learn more from you?

spk_0:   31:01
Lincoln would be great. I often accept connection request on there from the Dean Chowdhry you can find the has the CTO of job A J O B O. T were very active on lengthen and others extra media channels. We have a fantastic culture. So not only what I encourage. You learn more about me. But also check out John Bond, especially if you are looking for a career change. Our recruiters are absolutely phenomenal. Yeah, because I only been

spk_1:   31:31
That's fantastic. I know. One of these days I need to have a tech recruiter on as well to share their stories. We'll put that in the notes. Teoh, get somebody scheduled there. But Nadim, thank you again. So much for joining us today. It was so great to have you on the show. Appreciate it.

spk_0:   31:45
Thank you so much. Great. And really appreciate being

spk_1:   31:47
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